With all the interesting people and places you’ve met and seen over your career, where does standing next to man slapping his penis in the woods rank?
You know, I’ve had the opportunity to interview a lot of wellness gurus and alternative medicine practitioners and…really just quacks, and Will [Blunderfield] ranks up there pretty high. And it’s not just because it was so odd and off the rails, because there are a lot of people like that. It’s because he had such a unique personality, and I think it comes across in the film. He’s so warm and likable despite the less-than-evidence-informed — and, let’s be honest, potentially harmful — information he’s pushing. He just has this warmth to him, and he seems almost intuitively appealing, so you get why people fall for him.
He seemed emblematic of what you were trying to show with the film, the less-than-ideal paths of masculinity people can take, but I almost did a double take when he basically admits that there’s no science backing what he’s saying, that it’s all about feelings. Was that a surprise to you that he would admit it like that?
Yes and no, because I’ve heard other wellness gurus admit things like that, but I was surprised he was so completely emphatic about it. He didn’t try to hedge it at all. And I don’t know if that’s because he recognized the work I’ve done in the past, but it does show how people are able to sort of disconnect what the scientific consensus is to what they believe. And he wasn’t saying that he didn’t think there would be evidence, or that it didn’t work, or that it was a spiritual force. It was more, ‘Let’s wait until the evidence accumulates. I know this works, and we should all try it.’
I watched with a friend, and we both made comments that he seemed kind of childlike, even when he wasn’t slapping himself. But we also kind of felt bad for him, like the world around him failed him and led him down this path. Did you get any feelings of sympathy towards him, or any of the subjects?
That totally resonates with me. In fact, I kind of went into it a little bit more hard-nosed, and really skeptical and ready to just disprove everything. But listening to these people’s stories and what brought them to the manosphere, you do become more empathetic. You hear their confusion, the feeling of being lost, of where is my place, and you do want to create a community where people, even unusual people, can be their authentic selves. So that was my own kind of shift in perspective that I had in making this show. I think it’s important to differentiate all that from the forces in our information ecosystem that are creating that pressure and creating those feelings — I’m angry at them, but you can’t blame the individuals that are experiencing it.
Speaking of awful forces creating pressure on men, how was the Tucker Carlson event? And do you think a lot of the problem comes down to the fact that grifters are just always gonna grift?
I think there are a lot of cultural forces that are creating this phenomenon, and one of them for sure, is the grift. These individuals have found a space in our information and ecosystem to market nonsense. And not just products — they create a brand, they create a following, a lot like what’s happened with women in the wellness industry. They create insecurity. They say ‘This is how you’re supposed to look, how you’re supposed to act, how you will be more successful,’ and then sell products and ideas for profit. That’s a big part of the story.
As for the event, I’ll put it this way: It did not disappoint. It was like going to some kind of bizarre rally where truth and facts and evidence would be irrelevant, and feeling and culture was paramount. It was incredible. And the rage, the anger, was amazing. But then, going back to your opening point, we interviewed people who attended, and they’re just wonderful, warm people who want what’s best for themselves and for their families and for their communities, and it’s always important to remember that. You know, the movement may be so maddening, and some of the leaders may be enraging, but everyone wants the same thing.
The patriarchy hurts men too, right?
Absolutely, and there’s this narrative emanating from the manosphere that we need more manly men because ‘masculinity is under attack.’ Their health is poor, and suicide rates among men are going up, and it’s framed as if that’s because there aren’t enough manly men, and manliness isn’t being rewarded. But it’s actually the opposite — these adverse outcomes are the result of pressure to be a certain way and fit a rigid definition of the kind of man that you’re supposed to be, which robs people of the opportunity to be their authentic selves. We have research on this that shows it makes them feel insecure. It makes them feel anxious and it decreases the opportunities for them to reach out for help and to build a community.
We have a pretty rich data set on this exact point. Traditional masculine norms create this pressure to be quiet, to be strong, not to reach out, not to ask for help, to be stoic. And there are moments when all those things can be positive traits, but as a way of living, especially when you need help, it’s very harmful.
You talk in the film about how your father and grandfather weren’t what anyone would call ‘progressive,’ yet with you and your sons, you’ve kind of shown how quickly that can change in one generation. What do you attribute that to?
My father was very much a manly man. He was not a very constructive part of my life. And my mom came from a really traditional, manly man family — you can see some of the old photos we show in the film, and they almost look fake. But it’s really because of my mom. She was just so open and so non-judgmental. I was in a new wave band and used to wear earrings and eyeliner, and never heard a word of judgment from her — and this was a really long time ago! I think that really speaks to her own growth and maturity coming from that world, and then the impact that can have — how quickly, as you say, we can change the story. And I tried to pass that on to my kids.
The dragster racer you interviewed was a great find, and summed up the ideal of being his authentic self in a traditionally less-than-welcoming world.
I was a surprised by that interview, because here’s this gay man in dragster racing, and he loves the whole aesthetic of traditional masculinity, but he just wants there to be space in that community for him. He doesn’t want them to change. He doesn’t want them to be different. He just wants to be a part of it as himself. And I love that, because it really shows the nuance and the complexity of what we’re talking about.
I also thought, throughout the film, about a passage from Marylin Frye’s The Politics of Reality, where she points out that for many hetero men, they are ‘heterosexual’ only in regards to whom they want to have sex with. But when it comes to whom they respect, revere and honour — and whose respect, reverence and honour they want — it’s other men. Even the relationships they do have with women can be primarily to impress other men.
I think this is spot on. In fact, several of the experts we interviewed brought this up, and actually my younger son, when we were in the weight room, he made a comment about how that hyper-masculine physique, the influencers sort of portray it like it’s for women, but it’s really for each other — you want to impress other men, your tribe, your cohort. And, I think we had to cut this out of the film, but there was a comment made in the classroom setting, where one of the students said men are creating these stories and pressures for themselves. Which, of course, makes it more difficult to change.
So in the end, did you find a satisfying definition of masculinity?
I think you hear it at the end of the film, all the people saying over and over again: be your authentic self. The last people we interviewed was that great group of men in Brooklyn, and I just could not believe how they had amazing quote after amazing quote about being your authentic self. And that’s a really simplistic answer to this whole problem, but the last quote from the last guy is so true: Let’s create a world where every possibility is available.
Create a world of possibility by watching Harder Better Faster Stronger on CBC Gem.
